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July 19, 2008

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» The Prisoners' Dilemma in The Dark Knight from ...endurablegoods...
One of my favorite parts of The Dark Knight was the skillfully arranged Prisoners' Dilemma situation presented by the two ferries. A quick re-cap. The Joker has been managed to force Gotham authorities to load two ferries - one with [Read More]

» Elsewhere on the Interweb (7/22/08) from Pure Pedantry
We were discussing game theory and the Dark Knight. Mike at The Quantitative Peace has an excellent post that discusses all the possible iterations: I think this calls for a new villian in the third movie of the trilogy: The... [Read More]

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Random11235

Here are some further complications to consider.

The audience actually has a lot more information at hand than any of the individuals on either boat, and most of the rest of the cast of the movie period.

It is important to note that the outcome of the Joker's actions appeared to be pre-set. By that, I mean to say that the Joker's plans were designed to be carried out in a specific way regardless of what actions were taken by any of his games' "players".

Consider first the dilemma he sets up with Dent and Dawes. The two are placed in separate places and their demise is set to a timer. The Joker wouldn't have a reasonable way to know that the police force would recognize Dent's or Dawes' disappearance before that timer blew up. (In fact, through context you can see that they didn't even realize Dawes was missing.) The timer was set to blow that very night, which really didn't give the police much time to realize Dent and Dawes as missing. The Joker clearly didn't volunteer the information until he was questioned by Gordon and later Batman. So, had Dent's status not become readily apparent, neither Gordon nor Batman would have ever questioned him and both Dent and Dawes would have died.

Now look at the dilemma he presents with the hospital and Reese. The Joker gave a 60-minute time frame for this dilemma and had no clear feedback mechanism to determine whether or not Reese had been killed. He could have potentially used the news, but such a short time frame doesn't really allow for a robust feedback loop. Second, the level of destruction the Joker caused to the hospital requires significant prior planning, planning which undoubtedly occured long before Reese made his statement on the news. This would indicate that the Joker had every intention to blow that particular hospital apart regardless of Reese, and simply used his already laid plan to destroy the hospital in such a way that it would cause additional chaos, not to mention keep the police sufficiently busy to aid in his continued evasion of them.

So, where does this leave us when examining the Joker? I would argue that the Joker is not actually making any attempt to create a closed-system moral dilemma. Rather, much like the opening moves in a chess game, he creates conditions that give him as many options as possible to impose false dilemmas onto Gotham in order to force the citizens into actions they would ordinarilly find repugnant (" . . .they'll eat each other.")

So, if he follows a similar pattern with the boats, then he has again created a false dilemma. It is false in that he may very well destroy both boats regardless of the decisions of their passengers. Although, due to excellent acting on his part, Ledger does display a genuine, if fleeting, sign of disappointment when the passengers do not "eat each other".

-R

Julia

I immediately assumed it was a test of morality as the Joker had commented earlier in the movie: "You’ll see, I’ll show you, that when the chips are down, these uh… civilized people, they’ll eat each other." So, as soon as I heard the "rules" to the game, I also assumed that as punishment for failing the test (pushing the detonator), it would actually blow up their own ship.

Unfortunately, I wrongly assumed that one of the ships would push the detonator. I was sure that the ferry with the "good citizens" would be the one to fail the test, and thus they would die. When no one did, I almost immediately cried foul and figured the studio had edited the film because perhaps test audiences had found it too grim (for an entire ferry of "good people" to have died...and by actually "killing" themselves with their own detonator). In any case, including that ending to the "game" would have been so fitting.

Thoughts?

Goran, Croatia

I stumbled upon this post while idly googling for the dark knight ferry scene. This is very very well explained from all sides of motivation and a great thought exercise for anyone who has learned about the game theory. Great post :)

Charles Brown

Another factor which plays here (kinda destroys the dilemma) is that if you are blown you might not get the chance to blow the other. IT is not like the prisoner's dilemma where you can defect, if the other defected). The blow could be fast enough for you to die before you could trigger the detonator. Also the dilemma in the movie was not a dilemma as such as the Joker said that you will die by midnight anyway, so there was no benefit by not exploding the other boat (no benefit to cooperate).

Erik

Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't the payoff for the player who dies be negative infinity, as opposed to just 0? I realize a dominated strategy is a dominated strategy, but when you start getting into equations that might allow for morality to outweigh death, I think the value for death becomes quite a bit more important.

I suppose this is akin to the prisoner's dilemma, but in the nuclear war application. The classic prisoner's dilemma I learned in game theory class had significantly different payouts compared with the nuclear war game I learned in poli sci class. When we stop talking increased prison sentences and bring the discussion round to life or death, I'm not sure that 0 payout holds anymore.

Side note - I understand some people are willing to die for their beliefs, and that this would change the payouts somehow, but I'm not sure I not see how this would play out mathematically. Furthermore, wouldn't just one person's "infinite" loss due to death outweigh the entire boat's moral preferences? Any clarification on all that would be helpful.

Sunil

Im a 17 year old who's just been introduced to the game theory. im not all that good at it.
so people are not allowed to jump off the boat - then the boat explodes.
but does throwing the detonators away influence our result in anyway?

ofcourse - if both the boats don't explode, then they will explode together ..

Ryan

It becomes way too complicated, because the Joker could make each detonator blow up both boats as well, just because he feels like it.

Tukang Nggame

wow... great post...

but, I need more once time to can understand it, he he he :D

tukang nggame

thanks, good article. I bookmark it

tukang nggame

that a goo article and useful

Term Paper

I agree with David Choi... Thanks David

John Canady

The Dark Knight absolutely stunned me. Not since Dr. Strangelove has a movie contained so much game theory. A lot of people have focused on a scene near the end of the movie. But there is so much more to see.

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Salvync

Great Movie. I wish they made more movies like Batman The Dark Knight.

travesti

thnk you for sharing

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Maggie

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