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July 19, 2008

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» The Prisoners' Dilemma in The Dark Knight from ...endurablegoods...
One of my favorite parts of The Dark Knight was the skillfully arranged Prisoners' Dilemma situation presented by the two ferries. A quick re-cap. The Joker has been managed to force Gotham authorities to load two ferries - one with [Read More]

» Elsewhere on the Interweb (7/22/08) from Pure Pedantry
We were discussing game theory and the Dark Knight. Mike at The Quantitative Peace has an excellent post that discusses all the possible iterations: I think this calls for a new villian in the third movie of the trilogy: The... [Read More]

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Julie VanDusky

As Mike noted above, we had a lengthy conversation about this scene in the movie. Some points that I thought were particularly interesting:

1. From an institutionalist's point of view, I liked that the decision rule that determined whether they would push the detonator was different in each ferry. It played on the notion of trust. In the prisoner ferry, you had a group of people who previously had broken society's rules. It was hard for them to trust each other not to take the detonator and simply blow up the other ship even if the majority did not agree with the decision. So not only did they centralize authority by giving the guards sole control over the detonator and the choice to use it, at the very end the one prisoner threw the detonator out the window, making it impossible for anyone to blow up the other ship. While in one sense it appears killing oneself is irrational, centralizing authority to ensure the outcome you want is realized is strategic and rational in that situation.

In the civilian ship, there was a completely different situation. It appears as though everyone trusted one another, so if they had a majority rule vote, they had no reason to believe anyone would disobey the result. Although in the end no one could take personal responsibility for blowing up the other ship (I discuss more about that below), they all trusted each other enough to believe they would abide by the rule.

The lesson: a group of people must trust one another in order for them to choose democratic decision rules; otherwise, they will centralize and let others make the decision for them.

2. It was particularly interesting that the civilians on the ferry felt comfortable to vote to blow up the prisoner ferry, but no one would take personal responsibility for it. This reminds me of Congress, where members diffuse responsibility amongst themselves so that none of them can take personal responsibility for a piece of legislation. As stated in Fareed Zakaria's "The Future of Freedom", Robert Packwood comment's on his Senate career demonstrate this point perfectly: "When an interest group came in, you would say, "Gosh darn, I tried to support you. I really did. The chairman bent my arm." Then, to protect yourself, you would tell the chairman that when those guys came in, to tell them you really fought hard on the issue."

David Choi

I like this post.

Cynthia

First of all, I would like to propose something: There should be special movie screenings for political scientists. I say this because there were 10 of us from our department in our group, and we had a tough time not geeking out immediately afterward about the game theoretical and otherwise perhaps-more-interesting-to-political-scientists aspects of this film. I saw a few grad students from the Math department at the showing we went to, as well, so maybe they could join us in the special academia-centered screenings of future movies.

This is an excellent post, and as you mention, there are plenty of things for political scientists and game theorists of all stripes to think about in The Dark Knight. My favorite aspect of the movie was more generally that the Joker's (and later Two-Face's) MO was to inject a good helping of randomness into his villainy. I couldn't help but think of Schelling and the effect that taking the control over the decision to act can affect bargaining. I think that the Batman series has an incipient Game Theoretician, though--if the Joker was a little too unrefined to be our game theory villain in the next installment, The Riddler is nearly a ready-made villainous version of John Nash. He could easily be portrayed as someone who manipulates the information available to actors to alter the results of the game. I would argue that he's been kind of dumbed down in the Batman movies of the 1990's, but the Joker's interesting brand of chaos in this film sets up the Riddler perfectly to become the master game theoretician for the next film. We can all hope, at least... And if he does represent the villainous uses of game theory in the next film, I would hope that the costume is a little cooler than it was in the 1990's, too.

endurablegoods

Thanks for writing the article I could not. Great work.

yev kirpichevsky

Great movie, great topic. Two comments:

1. The game in figure does have pure strategy Nash equilibria: CD and DC. There is a mixed eq in this game, but it'd never get played -- it's clearly pareto-suboptimal. So you really have to value morality more than survival, it seems.

2. It's a good point that it's actually a repeated game, since they have 30 min to make their decision, and the equilibrium involves detonation at the first node. Now the interesting question is: what happens after the first minute when no detonation takes place? Anything can happen off the equilibrium path... But, anyway, I think this is best modeled as a game of incomplete info about the probability of dying.

yev kirpichevsky

In the first sentense first paragraph of the comment above it should say "Figure 2"

Michael A. Allen

Thanks for pointing out the mistake for game 2. Will update the post to reflect the change.

Carcarius

I like the discussion on this site. I admit that when I was watching the movie it wasn't immediately obvious that game theory can be applied there. This is mainly due to how biased the film would end up being. Naturally, Batman would win out in the end and the people would be saved. Thus, thinking about the results of the game are irrelevant in terms of the movie. It's a great mental exercise though.

I do expect that the next villain will be the Riddler and I hope they do make the movie more like a mystery thriller. That would be nice but considering what makes money (action, explosions, etc...) I doubt it will happen.

It was a great flick and this is a great discussion on game theory.

Thanks.

Mike

Late but additional thought: It is important to realize that the people have no reason (and perhaps specific reason not to) trust the Joker. His shooting his own men (which the criminals/cops would probably know about), burning his own money (irrational!), etc. means that the actual payouts (indeed the game's structure) have incredible uncertainty about them..

Julie

True, but how many people actually knew about all the Joker's actions before the Ferry boat incident?

Mike

Don't know if this got my response I just typed: Julie, they all did! That's why they were on the boat fleeing Gotham, because the Joker declared war on the city.

At a baseline, anyone there knew about the Joker's fake-batmen torture video, the assassinations (attempts and successes) of high-ranking public figures, and his blowing up a hospital. The cops/criminals would have known about him betraying their own men during the bank robbery. (The cops may have known that he switched the addresses of the targets during his previous 'game', breaking his own rule-making.) Note that the cops/criminals weren't energetic about playing the Joker's game - for all they suspected, turning the switch would have blown up their own boat.

Can't play a game if you don't trust the rules...

Julie VanDusky

Perhaps the cops and criminals associated with the Joker were aware of his tricks- but they were not playing the ferry game. The players in the aforementioned ferry game were civilians and prisoners, not people with personal contact with the Joker. Further, what the civilians and prisoners did know was that he was capable of murdering people. The fake batman torture video- he killed the guy. His promise to blow up a hospital- he followed through. Killing high ranking officials- from all of this it is obvious he was willing to take human life in sadistic ways. The civilians and prisoners had no reason to believe he would not go through with it.

yawnfest

Game Theorist, or,... THE RIDDLER?!

Jorge Ortiz

I think there's more room for an analysis of the game as a repeated game. Assume a series of simultaneous games with a finite end. In the standard analysis, both players choose detonation in the first node (T = 1), because they've worked out the backwards induction and realized they'll get killed sooner or later if they don't detonate.

However, given that time is discretized to small enough chunks (to model continuity) and that the players are subject to bounded rationality (none of the people involved can instantly think through the situation they're in... probably not enough game theorists on board), several nodes go by with no detonation from either side. This serves to build up trust (updates a player's prior belief about the other's players morality).

In fact, I think the movie encourages this analysis. I believe one of the civilians states (a few minutes into the game), "After all, we're still here, aren't we?"

The tensest moments on the ferries are near the end of the 30-minute game. Now the players have had time to think through the backwards induction, and the number of remaining game nodes are quickly decreasing. I think in the end what saves them is that the game can't be perfectly modeled as a series of discrete games, as time is continues. This is helped by the fact that the ferries have analog clocks, not digital clocks. (One can imagine a 24-style nerve wracking countdown. In such a psychological scenario, detonation might well have happened.) Since the clock is analog, it's hard to know when the last node of the game is, which makes it psychologically possible to delay detonation, until it's clear that the deadline has passed and everyone is still alive.

Mike

"The civilians and prisoners had no reason to believe he would not go through with it."

Really? If you were on that ferry would you think (as I did as an audience member) that if they turned the switch, their own ship would go up? We don't, in fact, know this one way or the other; we can assume that the rules were true (as Batman did when he went to get Rachel and found Dent), but given that the Joker made a deal in his public appearances as being some sort of agent of chaos. One can't simply assume a sociopath is going to keep his word, as these models do.

(Obviously we haven't touched on the notion of these people resisting even playing the game the Joker wants to play. It's folded under 'morality', but I think it's an even more interesting dynamic.)

Julie VanDusky

Based on the information they had, as I stated above, they had no reason to believe the Joker would not kill them. He had a reputation of killing people and following through with his plans, such as blowing up the hospital. Further, we can't simply assume that the average person knows what a sociopath exactly is, let alone be able to diagnose them as such. All those people knew was that the Joker was capable of promising to end human life and following through with it.

Chaos Motor

It was never stated or shown, but I assumed the Joker switched the rules like he did with Rachel and Dent. I assumed that whoever pushed the button would blow up their own boat. That uncertainty would surely have been present for the persons on the boat (were it real and they actually possessed concerns), mitigating any inclination to actually press the button, regardless of the threats.

eustatic

However, I think this calls for a new villian in the third movie of the trilogy: The Game Theorist. Much like the riddler, but deadlier and requiring Batman to use mathematics to fight crime.


The joker is already this villain:

1) dog-eat-dog, profit-maximizing-with-limited-information bank heist (simultaneously, the chaotic, ignorant henchmen vs the mob bank)

2) one spot: one pool q; or, three black dude's thugs vs two joker's thugs with guns

3) Kill Reese (the one, direct responsibility) vs Have Patients Die (the many, diffuse responsibility)

4) The Girl Vs The White Knight (individual vs collective good)

5) the ferries, as explicated.

I would add that it takes a good actor to make the long, expository lines of the "game theorist"/Joker's seem like credible drama. thank you, Mr. Ledger.

Remember the Architect scene from the second Matrix flick (or don't!).

eustatic

also, the Riddler is about semantic ambiguity and not about hacking the mathematics of moral calculation.

David Choi

@Chaos Motor

The possibility that Joker switched the rules of the game actually sounds very plausible to me, and it makes the game much more interesting, I think.

If the detonator blows up your own boat, and if both blow up at the end of 30 minutes after no decision is made, then how would the game turn out? If self-preservation were the only imperative, then the result should be that both boats blow up, but morality also seems to come into play, in which case, the end-result would seem to be less obvious.

Robert Link

@DavidChoi,

For me the whole point is that only a madman like the Joker could think "self-preservation" was or is or could be the only imperative. First off, it isn't self-preservation that serves species survival, it's that set of available self-preservation decisions which increases species adaptation to the species' environment (e.g., it's not enough that a biological unit preserve its own life if doing so comes at the expense of the next generation). Second, at any given moment, each individual is navigating a large number of concurrent game spaces, and behavior is determined by a weighing, partly conscious, largely unconscious, of the payoff estimates across all such spaces. Which is to say, self-preservation in one game space might be self-destruction in another, as shown by Batman's self-destructively Christlike preservation of self in the taking on of Dent's sins.

As for the ferry game, you're gonna believe the Joker? I'd assume my boat was going to blow whether I hit the detonator or not, and likewise, I'd have no reason to believe the detonator wouldn't really just blow up my ship. The madman might just get a laugh out of me blowing myself up thinking I was saving myself, and self-proclaimed agents of chaos aren't any too good at following rules, not even their own. Nope, what with the unreliability of the rule-giver/rule-reporter there really wasn't any rational choice but to wait and pray for a miracle (or a reprieve from writer.)

Cheers,

rl

Charlie Fletcher

I have to agree with RL -- My first thought was -- why is everyone trusting what this madman (the Joker) is saying. I would tend to believe, knowing the Joker, that the detonator would more likely blow up my own ship. The writers don't even introduce this possibility, maybe since it removes the dilemma as stated. However, I would think someone would raise the issue -- my choice would be the prisoner who is given the detonator. He states, "Did any of you happen to think this just might blow up OUR boat -- you're a bunch of idiots." Then he tosses it out the window.

Of course, maybe the writers wanted to point out what a bunch of sheep most of us are -- believing not only the lies of our leaders, but also those of a certified madman.

John

I'm with rl/Charlie on this one, you make the assumption that indeed each boat had the detonator of the other boat. I was so waiting for the "normal" people to hit the detonator and blow themselves up.
How does this effect the game? Do you actually believe the Joker or is their a 50% chance you could blow up yourself?

Charlie

The classic prisoner's dilemma is based on knowing the "truth" (crime was committed by you and another -- do you "sell out" or keep quiet -- will your buddy do the same.) Once there is no truth, the PD is out the window. Oh, I guess you could form a strategy based on conditional probabilities (there is a 20% chance we believe the Joker, etc), but in my mind, at that point, you are really betting on how much you believe the Joker (a known madman), so I think your best policy is to do as the convict did, and toss the detonator and hope Batman will save you (which, of course, he will:-)

Kyle Shurge

Thank you for the discussion about the passenger's dilemma in the two boats from The Dark Knight.
What would happen if the Joker was dishonest?
By activating the detonator, the passengers would destroy their own boat and kill themselves.
The Joker has shown several times during The Dark Knight that he is untruthful.
How does the Joker's dishonesty play in your game?

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